When it comes to the American labor movement, coverage is often either cynically dismissive or so optimistic one could be forgiven for wondering whether the last few decades of decline, confusion, and infighting had happened at all.

Jane McAlevey, a labor organizer known for her work with SEIU in the 2000s, falls into neither trap. McAlevey’s first book, Raising Expectations and Raising Hell, uses her experience organizing in “right-to-work” states to advance a strategy to renovate US labor. With every critique comes a practical vision for how unions, organizers, and the rank-and-file can build a movement up to the task of confronting twenty-first century capitalism.

I recently caught up with McAlevey to discuss these ideas. Below, we talk about what ails the labor movement, McAlevey’s problem with the terms “public” and “private” sector, and why we need to stop ignoring the rank-and-file.