David Harvey and Leo Panitch are two of the world’s most respected Marxist thinkers. Here, in a spirited conversation for Jacobin, they discuss Harvey’s new book, 17 Contradictions and the End of Capitalism; capital’s relationship to nature; and how to build visionary movements that go beyond just localism. And clash over a few things along the way.

David Harvey is professor of anthropology at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. Leo Panitch is Canada research chair in comparative political economy at York University.